Lotus in the Desert: The Untold Story of Buddhist Nuns 

Podcast by Dr. Bjorn Mercer, DMA, Department Chair, Communication and World Languages and
Dr. Chapla Verma, Faculty, Philosophy, Religion

Dr. Bjorn Mercer chats with APU professor Dr. Chapla Verma about her forthcoming book “Lotus in the Desert-Mahapajapati: A Theravada Nunnery in California,” which explores the challenges and resilience of Theravada Buddhist nuns, particularly those at the Mahapajapati Monastery in California.

Verma shares how she became interested in this topic and dives into the struggles these women face in a tradition where full ordination for nuns has often been restricted or outright denied, especially in places like Myanmar and Thailand. Through compelling personal stories, she highlights the perseverance of these nuns as they navigate strict monastic precepts, social barriers, and institutional resistance in their pursuit of equality within Buddhism. Their experiences shed light on the broader conversation around religious freedom, gender disparity, and the struggle for recognition in deeply rooted traditions. 

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Bjorn Mercer: Hello, my name is Dr. Bjorn Mercer, and today we’re talking to Dr. Chapla Verma about her new book, “Lotus in the Desert.” Welcome, Chapla.

Chapla Verma: Thanks for having me, Bjorn. This book is about Mahapajapati Monastery, and this deals with Theravada Buddhism. Yes, that’s how it is.

Bjorn Mercer: Okay. I’m excited to hear about it. I know you and I have talked about your studies for years, I’m always been interested in Buddhism, so let’s jump into the first question. What is this book about and how you became interested in this topic?

Chapla Verma: Yes, so I’ll start with the second question first, how I became interested in this book. Actually, it’s a fun story. I was teaching a Buddhism course, graduate-level course, and one student asked me, “What does the word Mahapajapati mean?” She had heard about this monastery, so I found it very interesting, and I started writing down about her question and just explained that Mahapajapati was Buddha’s foster mother and she was the first person to get ordained as a fully ordained nun. In Pali, the term is Bhikkhuni.

Then she started a nuns, Sangha. With her, 500 women had also come. They were also ordained, but they were ordained by monks, and she was ordained by the Buddha himself because she was his foster mother. So, I wrote about all these things, and it did not come to her very easily, because when Buddhism started, then for the first five years, there were only monks in the Sangha, their brotherhood.

In between, she asked twice to the Buddha that, I want to be ordained, and he refused. When her husband, the king, passed away, then she came with 500 women, and she asked him again, made a request. With the initial reluctance, the Buddha agreed. What happened was that she was told to follow eight rules, which are known as Garudhammas. Those rules later on created problem for female monastics. We’ll talk about that a little later.

I wrote about all this to my student, and then I myself became very curious about this monastery, so I did some web search, and I realized that it was in California and it is very close to Joshua Tree National Park. On the other side, it is also close to Army base, where this student resided at that point. There was some comparative religion course, which was offered from a university, but was at that setting, and a nun had come to teach over there.

That’s how she got to know about this monastery. Then one thing led to another, and I went to this monastery, I visited it for the first time in 2013. That’s a long time ago. Then I found these nuns very, very interesting because of their precepts and because of their life stories. They follow very interesting precepts and very difficult precepts. They don’t eat after- noon, so lunch is their last meal, and they eat between seven hours.

It begins in the morning, and noon is the last meal; they don’t eat any dinner. When I started my research, they were very kind, and they told me, “Why don’t you stay here? We have accommodation here,” but then I thought about it, “Wow, I’ll not get any dinner,” so I decided to stay six miles away in Yucca Valley.

They also have very interesting stories, because in this school of Buddhism, they do not allow women to become fully-ordained nuns, Bhikkhunis. Over and over, I kept on hearing about it, so I thought, “I really, really want to present their story so that people can hear it and understand their challenges and also their determination.”

Bjorn Mercer: Thank you for giving a great overview of how you became interested in the book. It’s interesting, I’ve always been interested in Buddhism, read a bit about the Buddha, his origin 2,500 years ago, but in this country, I think we don’t see Buddhism that often. I’m speaking generally, but it’s so interesting to hear that, in California and various other places, there’s a place just outside of Flagstaff, Arizona that is like a little Buddhist temple, and if you look, and actually there’s one just right down the street from me, you’ll find them.

Now, before we get to the next question, for the audience who’s not as familiar with Buddhism or Buddhist nuns, is there any comparison to Catholic nuns? Most people in the US, you have an idea of what a Catholic nun is.

Chapla Verma: It’s difficult to compare two religions just because of the way it is practiced. I would say Mahayana Buddhism can be more comparable to Christianity, because of their precepts, because in that form of Buddhism, that school of Buddhism, certain rules have been changed so monks can work, they can sell their books. If they write books, they can use that money for their own center and on themselves. In certain ways, it is different also, because in Zen Buddhism, they can also be married.

Monks can be married. Actually, to understand this, it is better to look at the history of Buddhism and the way it’s spread. When the Buddha started teaching, it spread in India, and for the first five years, there were only male monks, and then the female lineage started. It spread all over India, and then it moved to Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos. This is Theravada Buddhism, which is the original form of Buddhism, the way Buddha had taught.

Even today, the same monastic rules are followed. These are very difficult rules. Then it also went to China, Korea, Japan, and came to the US, so this is largely Mahayana school. Mahayana school went ahead and explained many things about which Buddha had remained silent. He remained silent about the existence of God, he remained silent about the existence of the soul. He never denied, he never affirmed. He just remained silent, because that was not the objective.

The objective was to remove suffering, but then Mahayana school has developed a different philosophical thought and explained and expanded. Theravada Buddhism remained the same, so when it reached Sri Lanka, it thrived and everything. Even today, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand are largely Theravada Buddhist countries, so majority of population follows this Buddhism, and they’re also state religion.

They get a lot of benefits from the government, and in 11th century in Sri Lanka and 14th century in Myanmar, it got the female and both male monastic lineage got extinct. Then some years later, they tried to revive it, and they found only male monastics who could revive the lineage, but they tried to find female monastics also, but they couldn’t. Female lineage then remained broken for many years.

Bjorn Mercer: Oh, thank you. There’s so much to learn about Buddhism, besides the fact that rich history in many, many different countries, the different parts of Buddhism, just like you talked about. The next question is, tell me something about the nuns you have interviewed for the book.

Chapla Verma: Yes, I interviewed quite a few nuns, and three of them stood out. I’m just thinking, which one should I talk about first? I’ll go ahead with the abbess of this monastery; her dhamma name is Ayya Gunasari, that’s how she’s known now, but in her lay life, she was Dr. Win. She was an anesthetist.

She always did a little bit of meditation; she was inclined in this kind of thing; she had some life experiences because of what she wanted to renounce the world. She was 70 years old, and finally, she retired from her job, and she also renounced the world, so she started following precepts, and then I would say, a little later, she got ordained in Sri Lanka as a Samaneri. The word “Samaneri” means that this person is on a path of becoming a fully-ordained nun.

Like you talked about Christianity, becoming a nun is not a big issue. Anybody who wants; they can become a nun, but in this school of Buddhism, it is difficult because when the female lineage broke down, then it could not be revived. Why it was not revived? Because there were no Theravada nuns to ordain new ones, they came up with a process that female monastics would follow eight precepts. In Thailand then, they are known as Maechi. In Myanmar, they are known as a Thilashin, and in Sri Lanka, they’re known as Dasa sila mata. They would just stay at that level and will never move ahead, no matter how much insight they acquire.

Later on, maybe 800 years later, Sri Lanka and India tried to revive this ordination. Now, ordination is going on, and few women have been ordained as Theravada nuns, but Thailand and Myanmar, which are very influential countries in this respect, and their centers and monasteries are everywhere, all over the world. They don’t recognize their status.

That is the problem. Ayya Gunasari went to Sri Lanka to become Samaneri, so she became a Samaneri, then she went to Myanmar to do a meditation retreat for two and a half months, and there she was told that you could not wear Samaneri robe, you have to change it to a novice person’s robe. She was not very happy with that, but she changed, she completed her meditation retreat for two and a half months.

She came back to Sri Lanka, and she was extremely unhappy, so she decided that, “I’m never going to go back to Myanmar until they change these rules about fully-ordained nuns.” Then she became fully-ordained nun, like Samaneri and later Bhikkhuni, and she came back to the US, and a few years later, she became abbess of Mahapajapati Monastery.

This monastery itself started in a very interesting way. One woman who was very interested in Theravada Buddhism, liked the teachings and meditation, she donated 80 acres of land in the Mojave Desert. That’s how this monastery came up. Another nun is Ayya Dipa. In her lay life, she was Sandra K. West, and she was in Army. She had the desire to learn more about Buddhism, when she started, many, many years ago, maybe 35 years ago. There were not many Buddhist teachers, so her quest started with reading books about Buddhism, and she did meditation retreats.

Then she heard about Mahapajapati Monastery, and she started her training under Ayya Gunasari. She became a Samaneri and later she became fully ordained in 2012. She was ordained in LA. Who else I’m thinking? There’s another very interesting person, she’s Saccavadi. She started her training when she was 19 years old. Her mother passed away suddenly, so she was very distressed, so she went and did two meditation retreats.

Then she decided, “I would like to renounce the world.” When she was 21 years old, then she became a Thilashin. Thilashin is an eight preceptor, which is allowed in Myanmar. Then she did something like 16 years of her training over there, came to Sri Lanka, and she realized, “Okay, over here, people can become fully-ordained nuns,” so she opted for it. This decision of hers made monks and Myanmar very, very angry, so they told her not to go ahead, but she went ahead.

She became a Samaneri, and then she became fully-ordained nun, and for two years, she lived there, everything was fine. She thought the monks had forgotten about her change of status. Her father was sick, so she came back to Myanmar to take care of him. During that time, she took care of him for two months, and everything was fine.

Then she was asked by the State Sangha Maha Nayaka Committee, which falls under the Ministry of Religious Affairs, to explain what was her intention? She should come and explain. She was taken to one of their offices; they had a huge gathering over there, a lot of people were there, and on a loudspeaker, they were announcing that female Buddhist monks are illegal in modern Burma. They are criminals and enemies of Theravada Buddhism. Then she was given a sheet of paper, four requests were written there.

First, one was to bow to monks three times, and then it was to change her Bhikkhuni robe to Thilashin’s robe. That means, “Move to novice person’s robe.” The third was to sign a document that she was foolish and wrong in doing this, and the fourth one was to say it aloud. She fulfilled the three requests, but the fourth one, where she had to say it aloud, she just could not bring herself to say that she was foolish and wrong in doing that. Simply because she did not believe in that, right?

when she didn’t do that, she was arrested for non-compliance, and she was tried in court. When the judge heard her case, he had a tough time understanding what was the crime and why she had been arrested because he had never seen any case of this kind. Then, gradually, he understood that becoming a fully-ordained nun in Myanmar was illegal. So, she was sentenced to five years in prison. From the court itself, she was sent to Insein Prison.

Over there, the officer who was filling up new prisoners’ papers looked at her crime, and he was shocked because her crime was listed as “Impersonating as a monk.” Then he looked at her, and he told her that you have indeed offended somebody in a powerful position. She stayed in that prison, and her stay was really difficult. Meanwhile, her siblings and people from other countries tried to get her out of that prison.

The influential monks by then realized that she was not trying to revive Bhikkhuni lineage; she was just an ordinary person who wanted to become a Bhikkhuni, and she did that. Then, she was given another chance to fulfill those four requests, which were made earlier. This time, she completed all of them, including the one where she had to say aloud, “I was foolish and wrong for doing this.” She was pardoned, and from there, she was taken to the airport; she was put in an airplane, which was headed to Sri Lanka.

She reached Sri Lanka, and because this ordination is legal in Sri Lanka, so she went back to the monastery where she was living earlier. She wore a Bhikkhuni robe, and she started working on her PhD in Buddhism. Meanwhile, the people from the US got her a visa, and she moved to the US. Here, she met a local man who was also a Buddhist and who was on the Board at Mahapajapati Monastery. She renounced her robe, and she married him, so at the time of my interview with her, she had already renounced.

What I realized during interviewing her was that whenever she would talk about her life in Sri Lanka or life in Myanmar as a nun, her eyes would brighten up, she would be so happy and delighted. At the core, I think she was still very devoted to Theravada Buddhism, but it was the treatment she got from her Dhamma brothers she had to renounce.

Bjorn Mercer: That is an amazing story. I think, for most people who live in the United States, the idea of religious freedom is so ingrained here, the fact that you would be arrested for that is just… It boggles my mind.

Chapla Verma: Absolutely.

Bjorn Mercer: It’s hard to imagine. For anybody who is listening and doesn’t know the history of Myanmar or Burma, look into it. It’s been an authoritarian country for many, many decades in which a lot of things that we just take for granted are illegal. I’ll say the country is still struggling today with a civil war, with that said, and it’s very sad.

Thank you so much, that’s such a great story. I mean, I think one of the things we think about when we talk about nuns or people who dedicate themselves to lives, each of these people has a life before, they have a life during, and then where they’re going to go in the future is all completely and very unique to them.

Chapla Verma: Yes, I want to add Bjorn, there were a few things that really enamored me about these nuns, because these nuns symbolized compassion in the truest sense. A couple of them had many difficult experiences before becoming a nun, and also, as they were nuns, but they had only good words about everyone. Ayya Dipa, the one who was in Army, later on, had cancer, and by the time I did my interview with her, she was in Hospice, but she was determined.

She was determined to do this interview because she just wanted people to know about her life. It so happened that she sent me an email and she said, “I should be the first one you interview,” so when I went there, I just left all my luggage in the hotel, and the very same day, I drove six miles and reached there and started the interview with her. She completed, she was very, very determined, and in the same way she did her precepts also.

In this world, where we are always busy buying stuff and so many material things we like to acquire, this concept of living a very meaningful, simple life, where you don’t know from where donations will come because this is a codependent system the Buddha had created, that monastics will depend on donations, and in return, they will give teachings. In the US, where the neighboring people and community don’t understand what these precepts are, it is very, very difficult.

Bjorn Mercer: Oh, thank you. I think for most Americans who are used to Christianity, of course, just by living here, you understand a lot of the concepts, and then, going beyond that, there’s a lot to learn about other religions of the world. Even religions that are similar-ish, we use that in big quotes, and then other religions that Americans would view as different, such as Buddhism, but there’s so much to learn and there’s so much compassion. Today, we’re talking to Chapla Verma about her new book, and we’ll be back in just a moment.

Bjorn Mercer: We’re back with Dr. Chapla Verma. So far, we’ve talked about your new book, “Lotus in the Desert,” we talked a little about the monastery and the nuns that you interviewed, so the last question we have is, what are significant issues related to becoming a fully-ordained nun?

Chapla Verma: Thanks, Bjorn, again. The major issue is how to become a fully-ordained nun, and then whether they get enough support from their parent organizations or not. In this scenario, they don’t get that support. In Myanmar, it is still illegal to become a fully-ordained nun. In Thailand, in 2002, they changed their law, and the Senate decided that they can become nuns, but they won’t be ordained in Thailand, so they can go to other countries and ordain, come back.

They can have temples; they can start a nunnery. All that is fine, but because the influential monks don’t recognize their status, so they don’t get the benefits which monks get, so their temples are not tax- exempt, they don’t get any special rebate when they are using public transport, which of course, monks get, but at least, they can live there. Whereas in Myanmar, it is illegal.

In Sri Lanka, which is also a very important Theravada country, they have moved ahead, and they have started ordaining nuns as a fully-ordained nun, a Bhikkhuni. It started in India in 1996, but that ordination was considered illegal. It was in Sarnath, and the next one was in Bodh Gaya in India in 1998, and it was accepted as a legal ordination. Legal ordination means nuns from those schools which have similar precepts. Since there are no Theravada nuns, there is one school of Mahayana Buddhism, which is Dharmaguptaka school.

It came from India to China and, in China, it is known as Mahayana Buddhism, but their precepts are very similar to Theravada nuns, so they helped. Currently, the ordination that is happening; is dual ordination, so 10 monks and 10 nuns will be present. Though, as I mentioned to you earlier, that initially when 500 nuns were ordained, they were ordained by Bhikkhus on Buddha’s order, and they were… Buddha never rescinded that order, so technically, they can be ordained by Theravada monks as well, but it is not happening.

There are a very small number of nuns who are from Theravada school, but they’re all over the world now. The interesting fact is that those Theravada monks who speak in favor of nuns are penalized. In Australia, there is one very well-known Theravada monk, Ajahn Brahm, and they started a nunnery many years ago. Then, in 2009, he observed full ordination, so few women became Bhikkhunis in Theravada Buddhism.

His parent organization is Thai lineage; he’s from Ajahn Chah lineage. They were not very happy, and they asked him to answer a few questions. One thing led to another, and he was removed from his lineage. They actually have to pay the price for helping women, but he was not deterred. So far, there are two more ordinations that have happened. This is the situation. Remembering what Ayya Dipa told me, when she became a fully-ordained nun, she went to Tathagata, a nunnery, to do a meditation retreat.

This is from Myanmar, this is Mahasi tradition, Theravada Buddhism. Over there, they don’t accept Bhikkhuni status, so they treat everybody as a novice. On which day you have received precepts that is more important than for what you have been ordained. The moment she reached there, she was treated as a novice nun. That was a little tough for her.

Another place she went to attend a talk was a Thai center. There was a raised platform where monastics were supposed to sit. All fully-ordained monastics were monks, and nuns were supposed to sit there, so she went and sat there facing laypeople. Very soon, somebody tapped on her shoulder and told her, “You cannot sit here,” so she said, “Why?” They told her, “No, it is only for monks.”

Then she had to get up from there, and then she went and sat with lay people facing the monks. You can see that this situation is not very stable. Where they go and whom they meet changes their level of acceptance. It’s very fluid; it’s difficult to handle for these women.

Bjorn Mercer: Yeah, I can see that. Thank you for sharing. It’s interesting hearing about that, because you’re crossing country lines, and then how the status of nuns within each of those countries, like you said, is different from here to there.

That would be very frustrating, challenging, because you’re like, “I am a nun, I can help people out,” but they’re basically saying, “No, you’re not, and the monks are the ones who are in charge, are the ones who will guide when the nuns can also help guide.”

Chapla Verma: Yes, absolutely. You have raised a very important point because, for monks, it is generations of knowledge coming straight from Buddha, which has been transferred from teacher to disciple, teacher to disciple. For nuns, it’s not there. They are at a disadvantage that way. There are a few other issues, which started at the time when Buddha gave Eight Garudhammas to Mahapajapati Gautami, his foster mother.

There are various opinions about it, but one of them says that a nun, even if she’s 100 years old, she would give homage to a new monk by standing up and bowing. Sometimes, it is taken in a literal sense, that this is what nuns have to do, so their status from Buddha’s time was very much different than monks.

The thing is, we find a reference where a few monks had very unseemly behavior in front of nuns, and when nuns complained, then the Buddha said, you do not have to give homage to monks. Whatever rules he made, none of them were static. It depended on the situation, how the situation was, and he would change it. Then, there are certain rules that have become very rigid, where they should not be that way.

Bjorn Mercer: Really, really great comments. I really like what you said, how the rules have become rigid when they really shouldn’t be that way, and I think you can apply that to pretty much every religion out there. Ideally, I should say. Absolutely wonderful conversation. Today, we’re talking to Dr. Chapla Verma about her new book, “Lotus in the Desert.” Any final words, Chapla?

Chapla Verma: Yes. I just wanted to include why I wanted to write this book because earlier, my research was about Zen Buddhism, which is Mahayana Buddhism, and it was simply meeting these nuns at Mahapajapati and just getting to know how this monastery evolved. That one woman who was interested in Theravada Buddhism saw this need that these nuns need an abode. They have no place to stay, their parent organization does not recognize them, so she donated 80 acres of land, and then they got other donations. They have now bought something like 20 more acres of land, so now it started with a very small nunnery, and then it became much bigger. Now, they have a lot more construction going on.

Also, their precepts are so difficult, and by teaching about Buddhism, they show their dedication. People can also see that nothing is achievable without dedication. In order to achieve something like mental tranquility, you have to do meditation religiously. These are the things. Their compassion, their life stories, and their dedication towards the religion because all these precepts are not easy.

They cannot even drive cars if they follow precepts correctly, and this is what I have seen, that they follow their precepts very diligently. They have a belief that the Buddha came up with 311 precepts for nuns, and there is a reason behind it, so if they follow those precepts correctly, they will be enlightened. I also wanted to present their story in their own words so that people can see their aspirations and they can also understand their challenges.

Bjorn Mercer: Well, absolutely wonderful. Thank you for sharing about your book. Today, we’re talking to Dr. Chapla Verma about her new book, “Lotus in the Desert.” Thank you for a great conversation. Of course, my name is Dr. Bjorn Mercer.